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Pushpa Bhave: (continues) Sushama tell us how you work on scripts because you have really worked on this one as well as on your other one which concerns women in Tamasha?
Sushama Deshpande: Before doing Savitribai, I was reading about some women involved in the independence movement. I was talking to a friend of mine who is no more now. Vasant Potdar just asked me why I was not thinking about Savitri. That was his question and suddenly there was a spark, "Aah,Savitri!". I thought 'yes', a thought should be given to Savitribai. I directly went to Professor Ram Bapat and asked him to give me books so he gave me a list. I was pregnant at that time and naturally he gave me books and I started reading and talking to him. While I was discussing the subject and the incidents, Professor Ram Bapat told me clearly that I should stress on the human being, Savitri rather than on her glorified figure. So I used to read the books he gave me which included some by the Satyashodak people. Pune University canteen was the place where our discussions used to go on about various things and this went on for more than a year. What happened was that we got very curious and I wanted to visit places and see things for my self. I went to Delhi where some papers were preserved by micro-filming; someone also told me that there are some books in Kolhapur so I went there too. At every place I found something valuable. After my entire research someone told me that Jai satya is still there in Kolhapur. So Jai satya -Adhi satya I found there. At Jyotirao Phule's funeral, when Savitri picked up the tetwai she started saying jai satya-Adhi satya. So while reading all this, I used to discuss the human side of Savitri with Professor Bapat. In the beginning I never thought of performing or writing a script about her life. Just because I was at home, I thought I must do some serious reading. Once a rape case occured in Pune and I asked Professor Bapat, "What would Savitribai do had she been in Pune today?" and I stopped and said, "Sir, this material can well translate into theatre." And you know Professor Bapat. He is a very good listener and also makes you feel that you are great.
(Laughter)
Sushama Deshpande: (continues) He started asking me, "How Sushama" and when I started telling him, he said, "Oh this is great! Oh fantastic" While he was listening to me, the form of the play took shape in my mind. So after that meeting I went to Delhi again and I met people who had extensively read about Savitri. So I went to Madhu Limaye and told him about what I was doing and asked him how he felt. He asked me, "I have heard that you are writing a theatre script about Savitribai." I said yes. So he told me that instead of approaching the subject like a Ph.D. student, I should think of getting down to writing a script. I was shocked that Madhu Limaye should say this. You know the respect we have for him. So I thought if Madhu Limaye says so, then I should surely do it. That is how I wrote the script. While writing it, Professor Bapat helped me a lot in getting a grip over the characters. Also I wrote the script on whatever text was available as I had no other option. I have been brought up in a farm, so I knew the entire atmosphere of a village which helped me a lot to know how Savitribai's childhood would have been and other things. But as I remember, before writing I had not thought about her childhood,etc. As I started writing, it all started coming to me, because of my own childhood on the farm maybe. While writing I stopped when it came to Hunter shikshan aayog. Until that I had not stopped but here I did, thinking how to portray this in a theatrical form. This was one point and the other was when Jyotirao and Savitri moved out of the house and started working. Because after that there were only incidents like they did this and they did that, there had to be some emotions and sentiments in that period in the script. I had read that even Yeshwanta's daughter was harassed by a lot by the people so I thought even Yeshwanta might have been troubled because of the school. So that emotional part I incorporated in the script and added some similar moments in other parts as well. So Hunter shikshan aayog was the only part where I stopped. Otherwise I kept on writing. My son Anjor was then a baby. I had the time to write only when he was asleep.
Pushpa Bhave: I must tell all of you that her first performance of VHAY MEE SAVITRIBAI was not in a theatre. We had a women's andhashraddha nirmoolan in Ambezogai, a small place which is in the interiors of Marathwada. There were more than a thousand women there and we were really sceptical about presenting this. They had heard about Savitribai in the movement but getting a one woman performance there was something different. So I would like her (SD) to relate to you how she managed this because she has gone through many such experiences of this sort of choosing unorthodox situations vis-à-vis theatre and vis-à-vis audiences. And it was very important since she was trying to relate to our times. So this experimenting with various sorts of audience was very important and I think it is something she should talk about.
Sushama Deshpande: Well, the first performance I did was for the narikan convention in Pune. The Ambezogai performance was the third or the fourth performance. I would like to tell you one thing that after I wrote the script I took a break and did one play for a competition. I needed the break and after it was over I looked at the script again. This time I edited the part that all women of those days met together. After performing a different script, I looked back into this one and felt that this is what Sushama wants and this is not Savitri's story. So I completely edited that scene. Then I declared that I am going to perform on the 3rd of January. Nari Samata Manch came forward and said that they will organise the performance. The interesting part about the first performance was that initially I had thought about music and lights. Later it was very clear that I will perform in rural areas. I had to do so without lights and music. During the first performance, the lights went off after five minutes owing to a power cut. The venue was the S.N.D.T. university hall in Pune and everyone was sitting there. My friend Mr.Vijay Parulkar came forward and said "Sushama, it is going well. Don't worry." I asked my husband to open the doors. As I was completely absorbed by Savitribai, right from the scripting period, I thought that had Savitri been in such a situation, she would not have stopped. So I performed my play and the electricity came on only after I finished doing the play. The response that I got indicated that I could well manage to give performances in rural areas and that it won't be so difficult. So when Shaila Tai asked me to perform in Ambezogai, there was no question of refusing. My only fear was that there were more than one thousand women present for the performance and women from rural areas are not prepared for such a thing. So the tension was definitely there. But that is what I wanted to do. I always used to say that I don't only want to do theatre but theatre journalism as well. So performing in those areas was always there on my mind. And a certain amount of tension was there before the first show but it is still there even today before each and every show. But after the Ambezogai performance, I felt that yes, I can reach to the rural women. Also I am very attached and affectionate towards these women, maybe because of the fact that I was brought up on a farm. It's great fun performing in the villages because many a time these women collect contributions of one rupee each and present it to me. I always say that if I get 51 rupees it is like getting 51,000. The daily earnings of these women are not more than Rs. 25 and their gesture really touched me. Once what happened is that too many women gathered for the show and many of them were unable to see me. So I asked someone to get a trolley and performed on the opened trolley. Once Pratima asked me about how do I manage to perform in villages where there are no mikes and so many women? She said that usually one gives such a lot of thought towards the blocking of a play. A director is quite likely to say 'now go to the left and sit'. I simply answered that I go to the right and sit.
(Laughter)
Sushama Deshpande: My priority was that Savitiri should reach to the women. These women are not accustomed to watching theatre. So many a time I stop in between the performance and narrate stories to them. Then I ask them if they would like to see this story in the form of theatre. And then I continue my performance again. After the 75th show I realized that these women are not prepared for what they are about to see. So then I started chatting and interacting with them before the show without the costume or make-up. After they have opened up, I would make them aware that they are going to watch a performance of Savitribai and Jyotirao and not some filmy dance. I used to wear my costume in front of them, apply the make - up while chatting with them. So it used to become a gup-shup session for about one hour before the actual performance started. Even today I enjoy performing in the villages. When rural women invite me for the show, it becomes a very sensitive affair. It is also fantastic to perform for the college girls from the taluka districts.
Pushpa Bhave: So Suhas what is your reaction to this?
Suhas Joshi: As I said earlier, I am a performer and I like to see a play. I will never go to the villages and do this and that. Never. I don't like doing such things. Maybe it is because of my schooling. Sushama has been brought up on a farm. I have been brought up in Pune. I want only perfect theatre. I have performed Marathi commercial plays in all kinds of places but it is so difficult to perform there. What happens is that the mood which is created in an actual theatre can never be created in a built theatre. This is of course my opinion. If you want to do it, do it with perfection. That's why for the past 6-7 years I have stopped doing commercial plays. It was my dream that I perform Smriti Chitre at Prithvi theatre since this play is very close to my heart. But I need perfection while doing it. Also this play is for a select audience. I will never perform this play at Ganesh utsav because this play is not meant for that kind of an audience. Even if I get a sensible audience of 10-12 people, I am happy to perform. But I don't want to perform for the mob. That is why I am doing Khel Mandiyela right now because we have got a good producer who is not concerned about the bookings but about a good play. I don't mind even if the play completes only 50 shows but I will be happy if the people watching it are sensible.
Audience: What was the director's role in the play considering that a play and a movie have been made on the subject prior to your play?
Suhas Joshi: The director definitely has played a big role in the play. Frankly speaking, I would not be able to perform the play without a director. I am not a writer neither a director. I am an actress and I like to follow the director's instructions. Pratima was the director and her main role has been the idea of carrying one character's expressions while the other character is speaking. Also the credit for utilising the whole stage goes to Pratima.
Audience: Suhmaji reaches out to the masses and Suhasji reaches out to the classes. But Suhasji don't you think it is also important to reach out to the masses as well?
Suhas Joshi: I don't want to reach to the classes.
Pushpa Bhave: I would like to relate to Suhas by telling you a very interesting story. Mahesh Elkunchwar had written a play called Aatmakatha where he said that the utterance of each word is very important. In those days we used to perform at Chhabildas and Elkunchwar said that I don't like the noises outside Chhabildas which break into the theatre; I want absolute silence and ideal conditions. He said that we should not perform at Chhabildas but at the same time we should not move to a bigger theatre. So we decided to perform Aatmakatha only at NCPA. But later on people from places like Nagpur and Pune who wanted to see the play kept asking us to perform the play at other spaces. And finally we had to give in, which the dramatist didn't like. We even went on a tour with the play.
Suhas Joshi: But Pushpa Bai I remember that very few people understood the play. I must say that the tours were not a success. Also we actors were not happy performing as the play was not meant for open air theatres. There used to be lot of disturbances as well during many of the serious scenes.
Sushama Deshpande: In my play, if there is a disturbance, I wait till the disturbance is over and then continue.
Suhas Joshi: Because your play is like that.
Sushama Deshpande: Yes. But many a times there are bitter experiences as well. Sometimes the boys make noise, or a baby keeps crying. I stop and ask them to leave. Many a times I fire people too. I can write a book on my firings!
(Laughter)
Pushpa Bhave: There is this one more very interesting anecdote. For Sushasma's performance at Ambezogai, we were expecting around 600 to 700 women but the number kept on increasing and women kept on coming. The day was Mahashivratri and majority of the women had their fast on the day. But since we had not prepared fasting food for so many more women who had come, we asked them to break their fasts and eat regular food. The women actually broke their fasts on Mahashivrati and had regular food. So such things do happen.
Sushama Deshpande: My spirit for doing the play is that at least five hundred women at any time are watching the play. Even if one listens and educates her daughter in turn, it is more than enough. That is my objective for doing the play. But there are times when your concentration is disturbed. Like once I was doing a show in Chandrapur and the organizer herself was busy doing some paperwork during the show. I ignored it for sometime but it went on and on for over half an hour. Then I fired her like anything and she left. She later contacted Mr.Manerwar through whom she had contacted me. Manerwar asked me why I had fired the organizer. I said I had no option because the rest of the audience was so good in spite of it being the Vidharba region of Maharastra. It was this lady alone who was spoiling the show.
Audience: I have a question for Pushpa Bai. When we read SmritiChitre or Tarabai Shinde, we read it as great literature. Fortunately or unfortunately because of identity politics or whatever we are suddenly finding very neat classifications like 'Women's literature', 'Dalit literature', 'Muslim literature', etc. Specifically Women's Literature. So this sort of a classification is obviously detrimental to the larger work but in what way can one address the situation?
Pushpa Bhave: True. Till the seventies, Smriti Chitre was not looked upon as part of women's autobiography but as great literature. But therein too, there are difficulties when people try to wash over, brush over parts which they don't want to read. And men specifically do that. In Smriti Chitre too, Laxmibai is addressing many issues. Now we call it as women's identity but she wouldn't call it as her identity. But she was very particular about her own identity. She said it publicly that if Tilak has converted to Christianity and wants to re-marry, let him come back, marry me to somebody else and then marry. Imagine saying something like that back in those days. So she definitely had her own consciousness but as I said it was looked at as if she was a typical Hindu wife and so they didn't pay heed to many problems within that. So classification sometimes is necessary; it shouldn't however be be water tight. But it is necessary so that your reading becomes more pointed and sensitive. But you should forget the classifications after you have read it. Now we talk about Indira santa, a great poet. We don't think of her as a woman poet because she is a great poet in her own right. But you have to read Indira bai sometimes as a woman poet. So you have to do both things at times. There are some scripts which are consciously written in that way, maybe those can be read with differences. Even with Gauri Deshpande's literature, she has said it many times that she is not a feminist. Even when you read some of the Anglo-Indian writers, they say we are feminists but our writings are not. Like Shashi Deshpande has said it publicly.
Audience: My other question regarding the two performances is that one is of course what the author has written or what the body of work is in the case of Savitribai and the second thing is what we have inherited because of our culture and orientation. After reading Smriti Chitre I read Anandibai's autobiography and nothing could be poles apart in terms of the way she looks at her husband. What I also found in the two performances is that the idolizing of the husband figure percolates in both of them. In fact my only little criticism in VHAY MEE SAVITRIBAI is that one has also read what others think Jyotiba Phule has written. Also he was a very fiery person. That aspect seems to have been lost because of her very sweet husband-wife relationship, which I like to call the Anandibai phenomena. So we tend to typify the way we see relationships.
Pushpa Bhave: Even though I don't agree with that opinion let me tell you that there are even people who say, "what is so great about Savitribai?" She did what any wife would have done for her husband in those days. That is one opinion but I feel she had a personality of her own.
Audience: Sushmaji, you have been performing this play for the last 17 years and during this period a lot of new discoveries have been made about Savitribai. So what changes have you made in your script?
Sushama Deshpande: Very minor changes. Nothing major as such. A photograph of Savitribai was found, but that is not of any help to the script. Again, they say a poetry written by Savitribai was found but I don't believe it. I don't think Savitriibai has written it.
Pushpa Bhave: Even I don't believe it. The writing style is not Savitri's.
*The transcribed conversation is reproduced here with permission from Prithvi Theatre.
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